On this "Face the Nation" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- House Intelligence Committee chair Rep. Mike Turner, Republican of Ohio
- 2024 Republican presidential hopeful and Former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie
- Utah Gov. Spencer Cox and Colorado Gov. Jared Polis
- National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby
- Former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb
Click here to browse full transcripts of "Fac the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: The U.S. steps up pressure on Israel to do more to protect civilians, as the pause to release hostages ends and the Israeli offensive resumes.
The bombing in Gaza is back, as Israel continues its efforts to destroy Hamas. Despite Israeli leaders vowing to do all they can to keep civilians out of the crossfire, the Biden administration says they need to do more.
(Begin VT)
KAMALA HARRIS (Vice President of the United States): Too many innocent Palestinians have been killed. As Israel defends itself, it matters how.
LLOYD AUSTIN (U.S. Secretary of Defense): The center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will have the latest on the conflict and the efforts to free the rest of the hostages.
Plus, we will talk with House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Turner about his concerns about our own ability to gather intelligence to prevent attacks here in the U.S.
Plus: Six weeks out from the first votes in the 2024 presidential contest, are the other contenders giving Trump a pass on his inflammatory attacks?
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. Presidential Candidate): Biden and his radical left allies like to pose as defenders of democracy. Joe Biden is the destroyer of American democracy.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will talk to GOP candidate and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. He says he's trying to hold Trump accountable. But is anyone listening?
Former FDA head Dr. Scott Gottlieb is back to talk about the spike in respiratory illnesses among children.
Finally, we say goodbye to three remarkable public servants, and Washington breathes a sigh of relief at the departure of one whose public service was anything but distinguished.
It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
(Begin VT)
With the cease-fire in shambles, the Israeli Defense Forces are once again pushing to annihilate Hamas. They are pushing south and warning residents to flee the city of Khan Yunis, which is suspected to be a Hamas command center. However, it is also home to Hani Abu Tayyima.
Hani Abu Tayyima speaks in a foreign language, expressing her despair. "I will never see my friends again," she says. "I can only play with sand instead of toys. It's hard for us to get food and water here, and a lot of my friends are dead."
At the Shuhada Al-Aqsa Hospital, women and children are desperately seeking treatment and shelter. Israel has made a promise to minimize the loss of civilian life and to continue negotiations despite being under fire.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu speaks in a foreign language, vowing to continue the war until all its goals are achieved. He insists that a ground operation is necessary to free the remaining 130 hostages, including eight Americans, who are still held by Hamas.
Now, for the first time, many of those freed describe their torment in detail, desperate for food and air in Hamas' tunnels.
(DANIELLE ALONI SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
CHRIS LIVESAY: "Our girls have seen things that kids should not see, a horror film," recalls Danielle Aloni. We just slept and cried. Every day that passed was an eternity," a horror film that terrified their families at home as well, says Hadas Calderon.
(HADAS CALDERON SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
CHRIS LIVESAY: "The first sentence they said to me when we met was: 'Mommy, you're alive. Mommy, we didn't know you were alive.'"
(End VT)
CHRIS LIVESAY: This weekend, Israeli intelligence sent a team to Qatar to continue negotiations.
But, Margaret, that same team turned around just hours later, saying Hamas wasn't living up to its end of the bargain, which included the release of all women and children.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's Chris Livesay in Jerusalem.
And we're joined now by the chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Mike Turner.
Good morning. Good to have you here.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL TURNER (R-Ohio): Good morning, Margaret.
"The New York Times," the "F.T.," they have details, specific ones, going back a year. The White House says this wasn't shared with U.S. intelligence. If this is America's closest Mideast ally, should that concern us?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I think what you saw was just a general dismissal by Israel and Israel's intelligence community of the possibility of this level of a threat, which really goes to the complete breakdown that occurred here.
It's been amazing to have our intelligence community now working closely with the Israeli intelligence community and see the gaps that they have. And this obviously could have been an institutional bias that resulted in them dismissing it.
But the other aspect that made this so dangerous is that, even when October 7 began to unfold, their forces didn't react. They didn't have the deployment ability to respond, not just the intelligence ability to prevent it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which raises questions now about, have those gaps been filled? How can you take Israeli assurances that everything they're doing is precise and targeted and exact?
Does the United States know where Yahya Sinwar, the commander who was the architect of this, is? Israel says that he's in South Gaza.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, certainly, the United States is assisting in the location of Hamas leadership as Israel moves to eliminate the threat of Hamas.
Recently, CIA Director Burns, who recently returned from the Middle East, gave me a briefing on his efforts in negotiating for the release of hostages and strengthening intelligence cooperation with Israel. He has been working diligently and doing a great job.
When it comes to counterterrorism operations, the United States has a high standard of ensuring positive identification of targets and avoiding civilian casualties. Should our allies, to whom we provide weapons and intelligence, be held to the same standard?
Representative Mike Turner states that the information being provided is selective. While we may provide information about specific individuals and their operations, we are not directly involved in directing operations. Director Burns has made it clear that we exercise caution in sharing intelligence.
Margaret Brennan questions whether Israel is operating at the same standard as the United States. The defense secretary and vice president have indicated that the U.S. assessment is that they are not.
Representative Mike Turner stated that the United States is operating and holding itself to a high standard when it comes to the use of U.S. intelligence.
Margaret Brennan asked if aid to Israel and Ukraine, which is being bundled with Ukraine aid in the Senate, can get through the Republican-controlled House if it includes provisions regarding the U.S. border. Representative Mike Turner responded by saying that Speaker Johnson is doing a great job in negotiating with the White House and the Senate on the aid package. This package would include aid to Israel, aid to Ukraine, and aid to Southeast Asia. Additionally, it would also involve changes in the Southern border policy, which has been identified as a national security threat by Director Wray. The negotiations are currently ongoing.
And it's going to take the administration coming to the table and recognizing that their policy needs to change. America overwhelmingly wants the Southern border addressed. It represents a national security threat, as his own security advisers are telling him.
You know, we can't have millions of people continue to cross our border and at all believe that we have a secure country with our national security.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So – but what's the specific on that? Because the White House is asking for like $14 billion. Are you saying the money is not enough? You want an overhaul of immigration policy that hasn't happened in decades, and for that to happen in the next three weeks?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, actually, there have been things that happened in decades.
If you look back at the Trump administration, where they had positions that – policies such as remain in Mexico, there were policies that were working that were keeping the Southern border controlled, where the number of people…
MARGARET BRENNAN: And that's a specific ask now?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: And that is a specific ask now – where the number of people crossing is diminished.
The administration can make changes which other administrations have enforced that – that change the difference. It's the reversal of those policies that have caused Biden's Southern border policies to be a failure and the millions of people to have entered our country.
Reauthorizing Section 702 - Interview with Representative Mike Turner
So I want to ask you something else that Congress, I know you think, needs to get done in a very short period of time, and that is reauthorizing Section 702.
We talked about it there as directly related to America's own terror threat and being able to have warrantless surveillance powers.
Mark Warner, your colleague over in the Senate, says the main challenge to getting this done, your Ohio Republican colleague Jim Jordan, who he says wants to take the FBI out of the process. So, can you get Jordan and the Freedom Caucus, of which your speaker is a member, on board with this?
Well, I think so; 702 is one of our most important tools for monitoring foreign individuals located outside the United States who pose a national security threat to our country.
And it's about to expire.
And it's about to expire at the end of the year.
It does not monitor United States citizens. I think there are those who look at the behavior of the FBI and want to punish the FBI, foolishly, by cutting off one of our most important tools to target at foreign individuals. It certainly is also one of our most important tools that we're using to help Israel in this conflict.
How's that?
Lawmakers Propose Bipartisan Bill to Address FBI Abuses and Reauthorize Surveillance Program
Representative Mike Turner and a group of bipartisan lawmakers have introduced a bill aimed at addressing past abuses by the FBI and reauthorizing the surveillance program. The bill, which has support from both Democrats and Republicans, seeks to prevent future abuses while still allowing the FBI to monitor foreign entities such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and ISIS.
Speaking on the proposed bill, Representative Turner stated, "We shouldn't punish the FBI for what they've done in other areas to hinder our ability to track terrorists and our adversaries." He also mentioned that Speaker Johnson is supportive of the bill and they are working to get it passed.
However, one challenge they face is determining what to attach the bill to in order to move it forward. Representative Turner expressed confidence in the substance of their proposal and believes it is the right way to address the issues at hand.
There seems to be a lack of understanding among those who want to hinder this process, as they fail to grasp the value and importance of it for our national security.
Speaker Johnson has announced his intention to hold a vote on the impeachment inquiry into President Biden.
Given the immediate national security threat and the need for prioritization, this seems like a questionable decision.
Representative Mike Turner agrees with the concerns raised.
He highlights the chaos in Congress and how some individuals who wanted to shut down the government are now trying to block the reauthorization of 702, which is crucial.
As for the impeachment inquiry, Representative Turner states that a decision will be made based on the evidence and information presented.
However, he questions whether this should be the top priority.
While protecting and enforcing laws is important, the reformation and reauthorization of 702 are critical.
The speaker is committed to achieving both goals.
It's always great to have you here in person, Mike Turner.
Thank you.
And coming up later on in this program:
(Begin VT)
There's a healthy way to deal with conflicting opinions. Actually, it's OK to disagree.
It's not just OK. It's crucial.
Did you just disagree with me about disagreeing?
(End VT)
Colorado Democrat Jared Polis and Utah Republican Spencer Cox, two governors trying to get people to disagree better, they will tell us how to do that when we come back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
And we're back with the coordinator for strategic communications at the White House National Security Council, John Kirby.
Always good to have you here.
Thank you, Margaret.
I want to ask you about this breakdown in the hostage negotiations.
Yes.
The Mossad has pulled their negotiators out of Doha, saying that there's no use in continuing to talk.
Is this insurmountable? There are still Americans being held.
We don't believe it's insurmountable.
In fact, even while the negotiations have stopped, we haven't stopped our efforts on the National Security Council and according – and all the way up to the president, trying to work hour by hour to see if we can get this pause reinstated and get those hostages out.
I will say, while the pause has been lifted and no hostage exchanges are going on, what is still going on, importantly, is humanitarian assistance getting in, including – including fuel, which is – which is very critical.
It wasn't. It's restarted, you're saying?
So, even – yes. So, even when the pause ended, what didn't end was humanitarian assistance.
We heard from your old boss, the defense secretary, Lloyd Austin there…
Yes.
… in the beginning of the program, and he said that the lesson he learned from the ISIS campaign was that, in urban warfare, you have to protect civilians.
He was pretty sharp in his words. He said he has pushed Israeli leaders to avoid civilian casualties, shun irresponsible rhetoric, prevent violence by settlers in the West Bank.
It certainly sounds like the Netanyahu government has not made the changes that they have been asked to make for the past few weeks.
They have been receptive to those messages. Those messages that he delivered in public, we are also delivering in private. They have been…
For three weeks or more now, including on this program.
US Official Acknowledges Civilian Casualties in Gaza
A US official, speaking on condition of anonymity, has admitted that there have been a significant number of civilian casualties in Gaza. The official emphasized that the ideal number of civilian casualties is zero, but acknowledged that thousands have been killed and wounded, with over a million people now internally displaced.
The US government has been working closely with Israeli counterparts to urge them to exercise extreme caution and precision in their targeting. The official noted that the Israelis have been receptive to these messages, as evidenced by their decision to deploy a smaller force than initially planned in North Gaza.
However, concerns have been raised about the effectiveness of Israeli efforts to warn civilians in Gaza about areas to avoid. The official mentioned that the Israelis have been sharing maps online, but it was pointed out that many people in Gaza do not have reliable internet access.
JOHN KIRBY: They have also been using paper and leaflets for this purpose.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I see.
JOHN KIRBY: What I'm trying to say, Margaret, is that it's not common for a modern military to give away their plans before carrying them out.
So I believe they are paying attention. I believe they are open to listening.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you're still conveying this message at high levels, even the vice president is mentioning it.
JOHN KIRBY: Absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You mentioned thousands, but the Gaza Ministry of Health claims that over 15,000 people have been killed since October 7.
Does the U.S. have an assessment of civilian casualties?
JOHN KIRBY: We don't have an exact number to provide, but we are aware that many, many thousands have lost their lives.
And there are many, many thousands more who have been injured, but we don't have an exact figure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When Hamas launched its brutal attack on October 7, you expressed strong support. You echoed the president's sentiments and defended the Netanyahu government.
JOHN KIRBY: That's correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However, Senator Van Hollen, who appeared on this program recently, criticized your actions. Let's listen to what he had to say.
(Begin VT)
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-Maryland): Many of us were concerned just a few weeks ago when one of the White House national security spokesperson was asked if the United States has any red lines…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: And the answer was no, which means anything goes. And – and that cannot be consistent with American interests and American values.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: He's talking about what you said October 24 from the podium. That's a Democrat saying they need clear language from the White House.
JOHN KIRBY: Look, everything that we do for a foreign military, including Israel, when you give them security assistance, there are expectations with that security assistance that it's going to be used in keeping with the law of armed conflict, the law of war.
And we are in constant touch with our Israeli counterparts about the way that they're prosecuting these operations. Secretary Blinken has said himself, it's not just what you do that matters, it's how you do that matters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But are there red lines?
JOHN KIRBY: We believe that the approach that we have been taking, Margaret, has had an effect.
It has allowed Israel to continue to go after a very viable terrorist threat to their existence and at the same time…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you're correcting, trying to correct course.
JOHN KIRBY: Correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think there should be clearer boundaries?
JOHN KIRBY: Our Israeli counterparts and us are engaging in daily discussions to emphasize the importance of precision and caution in their targeting, with the goal of minimizing civilian casualties as much as possible.
It is crucial for people to understand the context here. Hamas intentionally seeks refuge in residential buildings, hospitals, and schools...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JOHN KIRBY: ... with the intention of putting civilians at risk. Israel's objective is to remove them from harm's way.
Therefore, Israel faces an additional challenge as a modern military force. We acknowledge this. However, it is also a significant obstacle for them to overcome.
So, our goal is to prevent any more innocent lives from being lost. We will continue to collaborate with Israel on this matter. However, we understand the potential consequences for U.S. national security if we are perceived as endorsing all aspects of this situation, as Van Hollen pointed out.
Venezuela's Failure to Release Wrongfully Detained Americans
The U.S. recently lifted some sanctions off the Maduro regime in Venezuela but failed to achieve its goals. On November 30, three Americans who were determined to be wrongfully detained were supposed to be released, but that did not happen. Additionally, the release of other political prisoners did not occur either.
When asked about the next steps, John Kirby, a representative from the U.S., stated that they are currently reviewing their options and considering putting more sanctions on Venezuela. The status of the wrongfully detained Americans remains uncertain.
The U.S. had given Venezuela until the evening of November 30 to make the necessary decisions, but they failed to do so. As a result, the U.S. is now reevaluating its policy options. Kirby expressed serious concern about the failure to release political prisoners and bring the wrongfully detained Americans home.
The U.S. government is committed to resolving this issue and will continue its efforts to bring the Americans home.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Admiral, thank you for being here in person.
JOHN KIRBY: Good to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to the former Governor of New Jersey and 2024 Republican presidential candidate Chris Christie.
Good to have you back on the program.
We know, sir, the RNC is supposed to announce tomorrow who will be on that December 6 debate stage. Has the RNC told you you've qualified to be there? And, if you haven't, will you drop out?
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-New Jersey) (Presidential Candidate): I don't think they've told anybody yet who all of us are going to be on the stage, but I'm confident, Margaret, that I will be there and that we have all the qualifications necessary to get there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You – because you told CNN over Thanksgiving you will stay in the race through the convention, which would put you into the summer months.
Does the field need to consolidate to beat Donald Trump, which you say is one of your prime motivations in running?
CHRIS CHRISTIE: Look, this field has already consolidated more than any non-incumbent field in this century, Margaret.
Back this time eight years ago, we had 13 candidates still in the race. At this time back, you know, in 2011, we had eight candidates in the race. And at this time back in 2007, we had nine candidates in the race.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
CHRIS CHRISTIE: And so this – this field has consolidated significantly. And I suspect it will consolidate more after folks vote in Iowa and New Hampshire.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But isn't it a little bit different that you have the 45th president of the United States running, a known entity, who has this automatic platform?
It's – it's just a different model. It's a different case.
CHRIS CHRISTIE: Yes, it – the other thing that makes it different, Margaret, is, he's got 91 counts of indictment against him.
The day before Super Tuesday, he's going to start a criminal trial, where his former chief of staff and one of the founders of the Freedom Caucus is going to testify that he committed crimes on his watch and was directed to commit crimes by Donald Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS CHRISTIE: There's a lot of things different about this.
And that's why anybody tried to predict this is just shooting in the dark.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But why don't – why hasn't that turned off the GOP electorate?
During a recent interview, Chris Christie discussed the current state of the Republican primary race. When asked about the extreme rhetoric used by some of the candidates, Christie expressed his belief that it should disqualify them. However, he also noted that polling is not always reliable and that people may not tell the truth to pollsters.
Christie emphasized that it is impossible to know what will happen until people actually vote. He pointed out that in previous primary races, the candidates who were leading at this point did not end up winning the presidency. He mentioned Mitt Romney in 2007, Newt Gingrich in 2011, and Ben Carson in 2015 as examples.
Amidst concerns about the direction the country is heading in, former Governor of New Jersey Chris Christie questions the logic of voting for either Trump or Biden. He argues that if one disagrees with the current trajectory, supporting these candidates would only perpetuate the problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
Further discussions will delve into the issues and topics that voters are eager to hear from candidates like Christie, based on polling data.
Due to a commercial break, the conversation will resume shortly.
Additional questions will be asked after the break.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will return to Face the Nation with former Governor of New Jersey Chris Christie and Dr. Scott Gottlieb, who will discuss the rise in respiratory illnesses among children.
Stay tuned.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
Our conversation with former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, a Republican presidential candidate, continues.
Sir, let's pick up where we left off. Despite claims that Americans do not prioritize national security when voting, you have demonstrated a commitment to this issue by visiting both Israel and Ukraine during your campaign. Could you explain the significance of these trips?
During my recent trip to Israel, I was shocked by the brutality inflicted by Hamas on the Jewish people. I visited the home of a young couple, just married at the age of 24, who were tragically murdered in their small three-room house. The walls were riddled with 140 bullet holes, a horrifying testament to the violence that took two innocent lives. What struck me even more was the sickening pleasure that Hamas derives from such inhuman acts. This is why Israel must take the necessary steps to eliminate this military threat. Personally witnessing these atrocities has given me a deeper understanding of the situation and reinforced my commitment to being an effective leader.
It remains to be seen if the other candidates will have the opportunity to witness the same firsthand.
Abortion: A Galvanizing Issue in Favor of Democrats
One of the things that voters have been responding to so far in the upcoming election is the issue of abortion. It has become a galvanizing issue in favor of Democrats, and we have seen this trend a few times now. However, there are concerns that this could also help President Trump in his bid for re-election. The question arises for Republican candidates like Chris Christie: how can they take a stance on this issue on a national stage when it has traditionally been considered a state issue?
Chris Christie, a Republican candidate, believes that the conservative and smart approach is to let the states make these decisions. He has been consistent in his belief that states should have the power to determine their own abortion policies. Christie points out that he would not sign a six-week national abortion ban, and he criticizes other Republican governors who have taken a different stance on this issue in different states. He emphasizes the importance of consistency in political positions.
For the past 50 years, Republicans have argued that the Supreme Court took the decision on abortion away from the people. Christie believes that this decision should be in the hands of the people of each individual state. He highlights the ongoing democratic events happening across the country, such as voting in Michigan, Kansas, and Ohio, and suggests that the American people should have the opportunity to vote on their own state's abortion policy.
When asked if it would be better for the party not to have a national policy on abortion, Christie agrees, stating that he believes it is true.
CHRIS CHRISTIE: I believe that's what the Constitution guides us to do. And that's where we should stay. And that's where I've been.
And I'm concerned, quite frankly, Margaret, that, you know, candidates in this race have been all over the block on this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS CHRISTIE: And - and it's not right. People deserve to have a straight answer from you. And that's my straight answer.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, also giving a fairly straight assessment is Liz Cheney, the former congresswoman who just did an interview with my colleague John Dickerson and told him, the United States is sleepwalking into a dictatorship.
Bob Kagan, a writer in the New York – in "The Washington Post" had an op- ed saying after super Tuesday in March, Donald Trump will be the Republican nominee and what "happens there will be a swift and dramatic shift in the political power dynamic, in his favor," saying all Republican critics, perhaps even yourself, will fall silent out of self-preservation.
Is that how you see your party behaving after March?
CHRIS CHRISTIE: Look, I can't speak for everyone in my party. I can only speak for myself, Margaret. And anybody who knows me knows I will not be silent. I haven't been silent since the day I got into this race.
And, in fact, unlike others, you know, Nikki Haley says he was the right president for the right time and that for some reason, you know, drama and chaos seem to follow him. The reason is that he acts like someone who doesn't care about our democracy, acts like someone who wants to be a dictator. He act the like someone who doesn't care for the Constitution. In fact, he's even said himself he'd be willing to suspend the Constitution if an election wasn't going in his direction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS CHRISTIE: And if folks want a return to some decency and civility, why would you ever vote for Donald Trump?
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Chris Christie, we'll watch. Thanks for your time.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to the co-chairs of the National Governors Association, Utah's Spencer Cox and Colorado's Jared Polis, and their Disagree Better Initiative, which is an effort to encourage civil dialog among American leaders.
Good morning to you both.
GOV. SPENCER COX (R-UT): Good morning, Margaret.
GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we believe in promoting civility in politics, although it can be challenging given the current state of the world.
One issue that I would like to discuss is the ongoing conflict in the Middle East, which has sparked tensions and debates in our country, particularly on college campuses. Governor Cox, you recently instructed state colleges in Utah to adopt a neutral stance and refrain from commenting on current events. Regardless of their positions on Israel and Palestine or Roe versus Wade, you emphasized the importance of the institutions remaining impartial. Some may argue that this approach eliminates the possibility of healthy disagreements.
SPENCER COX: On the contrary, our intention is to encourage more meaningful debates and disagreements on campus. The unanimous decision made by the board of higher education in our state aims to ensure that the institutions themselves remain neutral, allowing for a diverse range of opinions and perspectives. We believe that it is possible to engage in disagreements without resorting to tearing each other apart.
As part of a statewide initiative promoting free speech, there is a push to encourage more students on campus to engage in open dialogue. The goal is to foster a greater presence of political discussions on campuses. Unfortunately, many universities across the United States have not adhered to the principles set forth by the Chicago principles, which were established years ago. Instead, they often release strong, politically charged statements that stifle dissent and disagreement.
The aim is to create an environment on campuses that encourages robust discussions, reminiscent of the experiences many had while growing up. The goal is to reduce the prevalence of cancel culture on campus.
Free speech means allowing for the expression of unpopular opinions, even if they are met with disagreement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Governor Polis, is this how you approach this issue in Colorado?
JARED POLIS: Yes. Well, the other important aspect is ensuring that regardless of one's beliefs, everyone should feel safe. Whether on a campus or in a city, individuals should not be afraid to express their opinions or wear symbols of their faith, such as a Jewish star or if they are Muslim American. There is a responsibility for universities, as well as cities and other entities, to actively promote this safety.
Recently, a significant Jewish conference called the Jewish National Fund took place in Denver. The city of Denver and the state made major efforts to ensure the safety of the conference attendees. In addition, there was space for people to hold demonstrations and exercise their right to free speech. Fortunately, no one was harmed during these events, and it is hoped that they sparked meaningful conversations.
However, some argue that there is a moral obligation to speak out. A tragic incident occurred in Burlington, Vermont, where three young Palestinian Americans were brutally shot, with one possibly losing the ability to walk. The rise in anti-Semitism has been evident even before October 7th, but it seems to have intensified since then.
Considering this, how do you find a balance in your communication with the university leaders in your state?
SPENCER COX: Yes, I believe it is crucial. Governor Polis made a valid point about prioritizing the safety of individuals. Unfortunately, there have been instances where this has not been upheld. It is essential that we speak out and take measures to protect and ensure the safety of people on our campuses. This is completely different from taking a stance on a political issue, which has become a common occurrence throughout the country. The situation on our campuses regarding this matter is absurd. We often witness university presidents who are eager to voice their opinions on various issues as long as they align with a specific political direction. However, when it comes to the conflict between Israel and Hamas, there is a noticeable silence across campuses. The fear of offending a vocal part of our campus community hinders any support for Israel. This is embarrassing and should not be tolerated. Institutions should remain neutral on such matters.
This is not a new issue. It has been a longstanding problem on our campuses that needs to be addressed in order to protect our students and foster healthy debates. We encourage these discussions to take place on our campuses.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SPENCER COX: This is a long-time thing on our campuses that should be happening to protect our students so that they can have those robust debates. We want this debate to be happening on our campuses.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, two pro-Israel groups, the Anti-Defamation League and the Brandeis Center wrote 200 different university presidents asking them to investigate a group called Students for Justice in Palestine, arguing it's rhetorical support for Hamas. And Governor DeSantis, of the state of Florida, ordered the removal of support in state universities. That's triggered an ACLU lawsuit.
Governor Polis, what are your thoughts on that?
JARED POLIS: So, Margaret, thank you, by the way, for drilling in on one of the most divisive topics we face today, because we can disagree better about Israel and Palestinian, we can disagree better about everything. And this is a great example and lens to view it through.
The objective is to encourage people to engage in meaningful dialogue rather than shouting at each other. This applies to various contentious topics such as abortion, Israel/Palestinian conflict, and border and immigration issues. While it is within their rights to express their opinions, as long as it does not lead to violence or intimidation, it would be more productive if we all tried to have constructive conversations.
For instance, what would a post-October 6th Gaza look like? Who would govern it? How can we ensure security for both the Palestinian and Israeli people? Many who support Israel also care deeply about the well-being of the Palestinian people. Similarly, many who advocate for an independent Palestine believe in the existence of a Jewish state and the presence of Jews in Israel. Instead of talking past each other, we should strive to have these discussions on one of the most divisive issues of our time, both on college campuses and in the wider community.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, let's see where that particular lawsuit leads.
On – you brought up the border. That's certainly also – I'm challenging the premise and I want - I want more civility, but tell me how to do it on some of these things because I know the president was just in Colorado this past week. You are concerned in your state about the spike in migration. I understand you have also bussed migrants to some cities in New York and Chicago, which earned you some harshly worded letters from those mayors there.
How is that different from what Governor Abbott was doing in Texas? And how do you get along better with your fellow governors on this one?
JARED POLIS: Yes, again, happy to discuss it on policy. Our role in Colorado was helping people get where they want go. We're just north of Texas. People come up through and, obviously, we're not going to detain them in Colorado. We've had about 2,000 or 3,000 Venezuelan refugees that have settled in our state. We've had tens of thousands that have moved on to - to where they're going.
But, again, I think you start with, how do we have a conversation about better security at the border? Democrats want that. Republicans want that. President Biden has proposed it. I hope that Congress acts and actually funds better border security.
Now, the flip side is, it's not easy. It's not a sound bite. It's not a flashy wall.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
JARED POLIS: It's a thoughtful, high-tech approach to border security, asylum reforms and immigration reform generally. There's a lot of common ground.
In fact, with Governor Cox we've been able to successfully start through the National Governor's Association an immigration task force of governors, six Democrats, six Republicans. We are agreeing on principles around border security and immigration reform that will hopefully serve as an example for Congress.
Governor Cox, quickly, has – have you got a response to some of those proposals from Congress?
Yes, we'll be putting those out shortly, putting those out publicly. But that's – this is the perfect example. Again, a very divisive issue. We put Republicans and Democrats in a room together and we start hashing it out. It doesn't – this is not about agreeing on everything, it's not about being nicer to each other, although we certainly need that, it really is about disagreeing if productive ways and finding be common ground.
We found an immense amount of common ground. We're still working through some of the - some of the details, but it's getting very close.
We'll watch for that.
Governors, thank you for disagreeing better. We appreciate it.
Thank you, Margaret.
And we'll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
The CDC announced Friday the number of respiratory illness cases is increasing across most areas of the country. That's RSV, Covid, flu. So, we go now to former FDA commissioner, and Pfizer board member, Dr. Scott Gottlieb.
Dr. Gottlieb, thanks for coming back.
What to Expect this Season
According to an expert, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, the upcoming winter season will likely follow a more typical pathogen pattern compared to previous years. One significant outbreak that has been observed is the respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) epidemic, which has been particularly severe in the southern regions. However, the RSV cases are now decreasing in the south and spreading to the northeast and other parts of the country. This infection poses a higher risk to young children and older adults. Fortunately, there are available treatments and preventive measures that can be taken to protect infants.
In terms of the flu, it has started later this year compared to the previous year. The predominant strain is flu A, and the current vaccine seems to provide good coverage against it. The vaccination rates for flu have been encouraging, with approximately 38 percent of adults and children already vaccinated. There is no indication that this year's flu season will be worse than previous years and hopefully less severe than the dense and early epidemic experienced last year.
COVID-19 Update
According to recent data, the number of COVID-19 cases is currently lower than it was at this time last year. Based on wastewater analysis, it is estimated that there are about 600,000 cases per day. The Ba.2.86 strain, which was previously seen in parts of Europe, is now the most prevalent strain. A specific variant of this strain called JN.1 appears to spread more easily, although it is not believed to be more dangerous than previous strains. Individuals who have been vaccinated with the new variant vaccine or have recently had a COVID-19 infection should have some protection against this new variant.
There have been concerns about clusters of illnesses in children. Upon investigation, the CDC has found that the typical pathogens responsible for these clusters include adenovirus, strep, pneumonia, and mycoplasma pneumonia. Mycoplasma pneumonia, in particular, has caused dense outbreaks in Europe and was also responsible for an outbreak in China that affected children. This bacteria is known to cause epidemics every three to five years, and it is possible that we are due for another wave of infections. Many children do not have immunity to mycoplasma pneumonia as they have not previously experienced an infection.
Most people experience a mild illness, but it's important to be vigilant as it can lead to a chronic cough. In some cases, children may become more seriously ill, exhibiting symptoms such as fevers, rashes, and a persistent cough. It's crucial for doctors to be aware that typical antibiotics used to treat pneumonia may not be effective against mycoplasma. Specific drugs called macrolides, like azithromycin or clarithromycin, are needed. These drugs are available as generic options. Therefore, doctors should be on the lookout for this.
Parents should take note of this information.
China was mentioned in relation to this topic. This week, several Republican senators, including Marco Rubio, sent a letter expressing concern. Rubio, who is a ranking member of the Intelligence Committee, is someone whose opinions hold weight. He stated that "a ban on travel could save our country from death, lockdowns, mandates, and further outbreaks." The question is, is such a ban appropriate?
In response, Scott Gottlieb stated that currently, we have more information about the illnesses spreading in China. It seems to be the usual strains of illness, so there is no reason to believe that there is something new and unknown spreading there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the CDC director said something similar to you, that this is not a new or novel pathogen. How can the U.S. be confident if like you're saying China's not sharing info?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Yes, I think we've learned that we need to have more active surveillance. So, you still see testing of wastewater on planes coming out of certain parts of the world. Hopefully including China. That's one good way to detect if something novel is spreading there. We have good flu surveillance in that part of the world as well. So, if there was a novel strain of flu spreading, I think we would detect it.
But the reality is that we're subject to the cooperation of foreign governments. And foreign governments need to be working with global health authorities. We should have learned our lessons coming out of Covid.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: A lot of nations did and do share more readily. China does not still. And that is a real frustration and a cause for concern.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Dr. Gottlieb, always good to have your analysis.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
Last Week's Departures: From Distinguished to Disastrous
Last week, a number of well-known public servants bid farewell to their careers. These individuals have had varying levels of success and controversy throughout their time in office.
Reporting on this, we have Mark Strassmann.
(BEGIN VT)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): In light of the expulsion of the gentleman from New York, Mr. Santos, the whole number of the House is now 434.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): George Santos, former congressman, has been expelled from office. This is a real part of his resume.
Over time, Santos had become a self-parody. His repeated scandals, including a federal indictment for fraud, showcased his willingness to deceive and take advantage of others.
The Power of Rosalynn Carter: An Unelected Force in the White House
GEORGE SANTOS (Former Member of Congress from New York): I no longer have to answer a single question from you guys.
ROSALYNN CARTER (Former First Lady): The next president of the United States, my husband, Jimmy Carter.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Rosalynn Carter served the public in her own unique way. While not elected, she held significant influence as Jimmy Carter's first lady.
ROSALYNN CARTER: He always knew how I felt. Sometimes he took my advice and sometimes he didn't.
In her long life, Sandra Day O'Connor championed mental health, women's rights, and caregivers. Three former presidents and all five living first ladies saluted her last week. O'Connor was eulogized as a servant leader with a servant's heart.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had more leaders that kept that covenant and served well.
Sandra Day O'Connor died last Friday at the age of 93. The Stanford law graduate was initially offered jobs as a legal secretary. However, she became famous and powerful, ultimately becoming the first female Supreme Court justice. During her tenure, the Supreme Court was often referred to as the O'Connor court.
Opportunities at every level, not just for lawyers and judges, but across the spectrum, opened for women, according to Sandra Day O'Connor.
O'Connor was considered a swing vote on issues like abortion. She disputed her role as the deciding vote in George Bush's victory in the 2000 election.
You were the deciding vote in that case when it comes down to it.
I don't see how you can say anybody was the deciding vote.
Well, OK.
They all counted.
They all counted.
Yes.
You have no regrets I could say (ph)?
SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR: No. I mean it was a tough deal in a closely fought election. And it's no fun to be part of a group of decision makers that has to decide which side the ball is going to fall on.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): And Henry Kissinger. In modern times, no American diplomat was more powerful or polarizing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With us now, Henry Kissinger, who was national security adviser to President Nixon.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): A guest on "FACE THE NATION" more than 20 times, here in 1985, ten years after the U.S. withdraw from Vietnam.
HENRY KISSINGER (National Security Adviser to President Nixon): The Kennedy and Johnson administrations took on a task that was greater than they estimated.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Celebrated for Nixon's trip to China and vilified for the secret carpet bombing of Cambodia. He both won the Nobel Peace Prize and was pilloried as a war criminal.
Right to his death at 100, Kissinger tried to shape U.S. policy to advance American interests. His admirers hope he rests in peace with honor.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you can check out those FACE THE NATION appearances on our YouTube channel.
Thank you all for watching. Until next week, I'm Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
